Re: New Tank [Coldwater - Help and Advice] (2024)

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Elizayne

• Just popping in
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• Posted on: 5/12/2016 8:36

New Tank #1

Hi readers :)

I have a tank arriving today (woo!) and am new to aquarium keeping.
Basically, I went to the pet shop at the weekend to buy my fish/plants in preparation for today. However, after speaking to one of the employees he advised me it was a very bad idea to put fish in a brand new tank and suggested I cycle the water first.

I am actually living in Germany at the moment (although I will be returning to the UK next summer - probably leaving the aquarium with my housemates but I'll research that nearer the time...). Anyway, my conversation with the petshop employee was very limited as I don't speak any German and his English, while good, was quite confusing!

I have done some research online and have read this thread.

I am happy to wait until the new year until I add fish. However, I do not have access to dechlorinator and Amazon.de isn't proving very useful either (at least €20+, seems overpriced for a small 100ml bottle). I therefore did some further research and according to Wikihow I can dechlorinate the water by either boiling it before putting it in the tank or by adding vitamin C tablets... are either of those a good idea? I would prefer the vitamin C tablets if it is an option. Boiling 52 litres of water will take an age. If I am leaving it for 4 weeks, will the water just naturally dechlorinate?

But if I let it "naturally dechlorinate" (if thats even possible) will this stop the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate process happening?

Moving on from dechlorination, how often should I add fish food? I have 52 litre tank (50x35x30). I was thinking of buying these fish food granules from Amazon, are the appropriate?

Sorry for all the questions, especially in my first ever post!

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Elizayne

• Just popping in
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• Posted on: 5/12/2016 8:40

Re: New Tank #2

Also just to mention, I do not have a water testing kit. The man told me in the shop that in a 2-3 weeks I could come back with a water sample and he would do it for me.

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fcmf

• Coldwater Adviser
• 

• Posted on: 5/12/2016 20:45

Re: New Tank #3

Hello / Guten Abend,

(1)

The employee in the pet shop is absolutely correct - fish are one of the few species of pets in which it's absolutely not possible to buy their equipment/housing and the pet on the same day.

In order to prepare the tank to be suitable for the fish, the filter must be "cycled" in advance in order that it is capable of processing the fishes' waste (ammonia which is invisible but toxic to fish) - this fishless cycle process involves using a source of ammonia (the brand most commonly used in the UK is Jeyes' Kleen-Off) to simulate the fish waste and takes approximately 6 weeks to do. Fish food can be added instead as a source of ammonia - but it's almost impossible to gauge how much to dose, etc.

The only way to know how this cycling process is going is to buy your own test kit to measure at least daily and know how much ammonia to dose and when. Only after the fishless cycle is complete is it safe to add the fish. It's actually the *filter* that cycles, not the water. A test of the water after a few weeks of doing nothing other than having the filter switched on will just show up the same as it is now - but the filter won't have "cycled" without the above process having taken place.

Dechlorinator may seem expensive but it's absolutely vital, and a little goes a long way e.g. a bottle of Seachem Prime can last for years.

(2)

However, before offering any more advice, I think you need to have a VERY strong think about whether keeping fish is the right idea. It's relatively easy to take any other pet with you when moving house or overseas, but incredibly difficult with fish. How certain are you that someone in your house will take on the responsibility after you leave, and how stable is the home environment that they will still be living there in 5+ years' time, and that a landlord won't decide to sell up?

Fish suitable for the size of your tank (small, micro-sized tropical species only) generally have a lifespan of 5+ years but some species live 4x that! Aside from the "cycling" process, the fish require at least weekly water changes and water testing - more often if any of the fish show signs of illness. A spare tank (although a plastic tub would be fine) and spare heater and filter would be required for a quarantine tank if a fish was ill or new fish were bought to be added to the tank.

If you can't almost guarantee that someone will take on these responsibilities, then I suggest having a re-think and either turn the tank into an aquascaping venture or possibly keeping an easier pet - otherwise it's unfair on the fish who risk becoming neglected and subject to a cruel demise.

Hope this helps, and sorry if the above sounds a little harsh - but this needs to be thought through now, not later down the line, for the sake of the fish.

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Elizayne

• Just popping in
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• Posted on: 6/12/2016 9:27

Re: New Tank #4

Hi Fcmc,

I put water in the tank and the filter is now switched on. I invested in what I believe to be a quality filter, it has a sponge, charcoal and bacteria pellet(?) layer.

The employee told me it was only necessary to use the dechlorinator when adding new water to a pre-existing aquarium, but not to an aquarium going through the fishless cycle as the chlorine will breakdown. He said that the chlorine would breakdown after just a few days with the help of UV light (aka the sun, which thankfully there is a lot of here in Germany despite being winter and freezing!).

After that I was planning to use the fish food to start the ammonia /nitrite/nitrate process on his advice / the internet at large. I was told that the chlorine will kill any bacteria off these first few days so will wait until the end of the week.

Regarding the water test kit, the reviews on Amazon say that the cheap strips are not very accurate, so I guess there is not much point in those? If you think the strips are adequate then they are not expensive so will buy them. However, it is not in my price range to buy a £100+ sophisticated tester - I don’t think that’s unreasonable to not have one. It is not possible to import ammonia it seems and I am worried about my translation skills from ordering the ammonia online. I am hoping that by adding a couple of flake every few days I will be able to achieve the cycle successfully. No, not ideal but hopefully it will work. When I test the water back at the pet shop in a couple of weeks I will know what to do next. Obviously, the fish won’t get put in if the water is not adequate.

I have researched online that it is possible to transport fish during long journeys and that UK customs will accept them to go through at the border. However, if I do decide to leave them here, the house I am in has been rented out by a disabled man who lives off the income from his properties, so I highly doubt he’ll be selling anytime soon. It is usually rented to people staying for at least 5 years a time, I am the exception. The other woman is also keen with the aquarium and she has no plans to leave. Alternatively, I can donate them either back to the petshop or to a local aquatic keeper. So, please do not expel me from this forum! I am a great animal lover and would not put an animal in harms way. Most people, wrongly, do just stick their fish straight into tap water, in a bowl too small, with no filter etc. I am not planning to purchase expensive fish, but I DO want to look after them – if I didn’t, I wouldn’t be here seeking advice.

5th – 8th December: Do nothing except keep the filter on
8th- 16th December: Add a couple of fish flakes every couple of days
16th/17th December: Go to pet shop and test water (if I do not have the strips). If he says it is all good then I will get the fish. I’m not expecting the water to be ready yet, but it will be good to see how its going. Could plants be added at this point?
17th December – 2nd January: Keep adding flakes every few days
3rd Jan: Get tested again, hopefully adopt my fish.

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fcmf

• Coldwater Adviser
• 

• Posted on: 7/12/2016 8:37

Re: New Tank #5

Glad that you have a good filter. Irrespective of its quality, it is still necessary to do the fishless cycle in order to build up the amount of beneficial bacteria necessary on the filter media in order to process the fish waste. This process normally takes 6 weeks although it can take longer.

I tried using fish food as my ammonia source for doing the fishless cycle a couple of years ago but failed. I measured the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates twice daily for a fortnight but they just gave readings as though nothing was happening ie ammonia and nitrite remained at 0 while nitrate remained at 20, just like my tap water readings. If I hadn't learned otherwise from the fish forums, I would have thought my tank was safe for fish as the readings would have implied that, rather than having gone through the cycle as in the article you read.

The best place to look for high quality articles on the fishless cycle is on these forums (rather than just random articles, the quality of which could vary enormously) - so, if you do find one on the fish food method from one of these sites, follow it carefully.

As for testing kits, the most important tests are for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Most people on these fish forums prefer liquid-based test kits, in particular the API Masterkit. The advantage of this is that it lasts for a long time and probably works out more cost-effective ultimately. Also, particularly when going through the 6-week fishless cycle stage, it will give more specific readings for the nitrite and nitrates which will be particularly important.

I use both test strips AND liquid-based test kits. The problem with the test strips is that they don't have an ammonia reading on them, although some brands do sell separate ammonia testing strips. Personally, I find the test strips good for nitrite, nitrates and chlorine, and easier to read than the liquid-based test strips, but that they tend to give a slightly lower reading than I'd expect for PH and a higher reading than I'd expect for water hardness (GH and KH) in comparison with my water company's records for PH and water hardness. Longer term, you could, for example, buy the JBL test strips plus the JBL liquid-based ammonia test.

What is important is that the ammonia you purchase only contains ammonia and not a whole host of other ingredients.

In terms of moving fish, it can be very problematic. I was helping out someone earlier this year with that very issue on a fish forum, and very few airlines accept fish (we only identified 2 at most), while it's also hugely risky. Theoretically, they could be moved overland but, again, that's very risky as the move itself (even just being caught and put into a transport bag to move locally, let alone undergoing a very long journey) is enough to stress and kill them, let alone how to ensure that they get adequate filtration - unfortunately, battery operated filters don't seem to exist. Therefore, I think, from a practical point of view, you'll have to resign yourself to leaving them behind.

Glad that the household situation seems relatively stable - I know of, and have read of so many difficult situations here in the UK on fish forums, that have turned out otherwise that I think it's best to be upfront about this from the start to prevent problems later down the line. Additionally, many people find that the pet/aquatic shops won't take back fish and that advertising fish on local generic websites or aquatic specialist websites isn't necessarily forthcoming in terms of finding them a new home because the fish may not be compatible with those in their existing tanks.

Fishkeeping, unfortunately, is very different from keeping other pets as the planning, expense and "preparing for / dealing with all eventualities" absolutely has to take place at the outset. Even with meticulous planning, it's so easy to have unforeseen problems - it's not a situation of being able to learn / research as you go along, which is more feasible with other pets, as often the problem is only realised once it's too late and can be very difficult to redress... Most of us have learned a hard lesson in one way or the other, despite being great animal lovers and following advice to a tee, as fishkeeping can throw up a lot of unforeseen challenges.

Depending on how much German you know, you might find this helpful - https://www.bmel.de/DE/Tier/Tierschutz ... ungZierfischeTabelle.html It refers to different species of pet fish requirements in terms of tank size, etc. My understanding is that this is legislation, and therefore it would be illegal to sell and purchase fish and put them in a filter-less bowl of tap water ie I understood that pet/aquatic shops could only sell if they knew that the fishtank requirements were suitable, so I'm quite horrified to read what you tell me - and indeed that this might be happening anywhere in western society in this day and age when the internet with its information is so readily available!

Hope this is helpful. Viel Gluck und Spass mit der Aquaristik! Any ideas of what type of fish you might get? You might also find seriouslyfish.com help for what a particular species' requirements are eg temp range, tank size, water hardness levels, shoal size, etc, to ensure compatibility, etc.

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fcmf

• Coldwater Adviser
• 

• Posted on: 7/12/2016 12:23

Re: New Tank #6

Re-posting the previous message as, for some reason, it looked as though there had been no reply to your last one:

Glad that you have a good filter. Irrespective of its quality, it is still necessary to do the fishless cycle in order to build up the amount of beneficial bacteria necessary on the filter media in order to process the fish waste. This process normally takes 6 weeks although it can take longer.

I tried using fish food as my ammonia source for doing the fishless cycle a couple of years ago but failed. I measured the ammonia, nitrite and nitrates twice daily for a fortnight but they just gave readings as though nothing was happening ie ammonia and nitrite remained at 0 while nitrate remained at 20, just like my tap water readings. If I hadn't learned otherwise from the fish forums, I would have thought my tank was safe for fish as the readings would have implied that, rather than having gone through the cycle as in the article you read.

The best place to look for high quality articles on the fishless cycle is on these forums (rather than just random articles, the quality of which could vary enormously) - so, if you do find one on the fish food method from one of these sites, follow it carefully.

As for testing kits, the most important tests are for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Most people on these fish forums prefer liquid-based test kits, in particular the API Masterkit. The advantage of this is that it lasts for a long time and probably works out more cost-effective ultimately. Also, particularly when going through the 6-week fishless cycle stage, it will give more specific readings for the nitrite and nitrates which will be particularly important.

I use both test strips AND liquid-based test kits. The problem with the test strips is that they don't have an ammonia reading on them, although some brands do sell separate ammonia testing strips. Personally, I find the test strips good for nitrite, nitrates and chlorine, and easier to read than the liquid-based test strips, but that they tend to give a slightly lower reading than I'd expect for PH and a higher reading than I'd expect for water hardness (GH and KH) in comparison with my water company's records for PH and water hardness. Longer term, you could, for example, buy the JBL test strips plus the JBL liquid-based ammonia test.

What is important is that the ammonia you purchase only contains ammonia and not a whole host of other ingredients.

In terms of moving fish, it can be very problematic. I was helping out someone earlier this year with that very issue on a fish forum, and very few airlines accept fish (we only identified 2 at most), while it's also hugely risky. Theoretically, they could be moved overland but, again, that's very risky as the move itself (even just being caught and put into a transport bag to move locally, let alone undergoing a very long journey) is enough to stress and kill them, let alone how to ensure that they get adequate filtration - unfortunately, battery operated filters don't seem to exist. Therefore, I think, from a practical point of view, you'll have to resign yourself to leaving them behind.

Glad that the household situation seems relatively stable - I know of, and have read of so many difficult situations here in the UK on fish forums, that have turned out otherwise that I think it's best to be upfront about this from the start to prevent problems later down the line. Additionally, many people find that the pet/aquatic shops won't take back fish and that advertising fish on local generic websites or aquatic specialist websites isn't necessarily forthcoming in terms of finding them a new home because the fish may not be compatible with those in their existing tanks.

Fishkeeping, unfortunately, is very different from keeping other pets as the planning, expense and "preparing for / dealing with all eventualities" absolutely has to take place at the outset. Even with meticulous planning, it's so easy to have unforeseen problems - it's not a situation of being able to learn / research as you go along, which is more feasible with other pets, as often the problem is only realised once it's too late and can be very difficult to redress... Most of us have learned a hard lesson in one way or the other, despite being great animal lovers and following advice to a tee, as fishkeeping can throw up a lot of unforeseen challenges.

Depending on how much German you know, you might find this helpful - https://www.bmel.de/DE/Tier/Tierschutz ... ungZierfischeTabelle.html It refers to different species of pet fish requirements in terms of tank size, etc. My understanding is that this is legislation, and therefore it would be illegal to sell and purchase fish and put them in a filter-less bowl of tap water ie I understood that pet/aquatic shops could only sell if they knew that the fishtank requirements were suitable, so I'm quite horrified to read what you tell me - and indeed that this might be happening anywhere in western society in this day and age when the internet with its information is so readily available!

Hope this is helpful. Viel Gluck und Spass mit der Aquaristik! Any ideas of what type of fish you might get? You might also find seriouslyfish.com help for what a particular species' requirements are eg temp range, tank size, water hardness levels, shoal size, etc, to ensure compatibility, etc.

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Elizayne

• Just popping in
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• Posted on: 8/12/2016 8:38

Re: New Tank #7

I have now brought some test strips, although they do not include an ammonia reading. So, when the other readings get the green light I will take my sample to the petshop and one of the employees can use an accurate tester to see if the tank is ready.

I understand you concerns for taking on fish, but I think nobody really knows where we will be, or if we will even be, in 20 years! The likelihood is that I will be finding a new owner for the fish when I leave whether that is my friend, a local aquatic or a petshop.

My German is extremely poor, I was hoping to learn while I was here, but everybody would rather speak English to me so it hasn't worked out! That seems strange if it is illegal, maybe it's a guideline? I suppose in the end anybody can lie about their tank. He did strongly reccommend that I didn't buy them at least.

These are the two types of fish I was planning on getting based on advice at the shop:

- Poecilia reticulata (I think, they look the same as the ones I saw)

- Gymnocorymbus ternetzi

Thanks for the website, it was useful. At the shop I was planning to get 2 of the black skirts and 5-6 of the guppies. I read on the website you gave me there that the black skirts should be in a 70L tank for a group, so i guess the employee is right to advice me 2 for a 50L? I hope so, they are very beautiful. I didn't realise though that they would be nippers, do you think that will be a problem for the guppies? I am going to have quite a lot of plants in the tank so perhaps that will help prevent it?.... I don't want to overcrowd the tank so this would be all that I would get. I may even just get the guppies..?

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Elizayne

• Just popping in
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• Posted on: 8/12/2016 17:37

Re: New Tank #8

Hi me again,

I just kitted myself out with test strips, aquasafe, temperature gauge and fish flakes.

I've made a strange discovery though. ALL the readings come well into the safe zone?! How can that be? It's only been a few days... I tested the tap water and the results were the same except chlorine was more, but even that was in the safe zone?!

Very confused... is the quality just really good in my home?

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fcmf

• Coldwater Adviser
• 

• Posted on: 8/12/2016 19:33

Re: New Tank #9

Hello,

The reason that your readings will be safe is because, at the moment, your readings are basically what the tap water readings will be. In order to prepare the filter to be able to deal with the fishes' waste, it needs to go through a process of building up sufficient beneficial bacteria to be able to deal with the ammonia and other excretions of the fish. It will take some time for the ammonia from the fish food to build up, then convert to nitrites and then to nitrates; it will only be after 6+ weeks that this process will be complete. [This is where I mentioned I went wrong - it seemed nothing was happening and that my water readings were fine - but it was because the process never got properly started. I then learned about the 'using ammonia' method.] Read these in more detail and hopefully they'll explain the situation for you:
http://www.fishkeeping.co.uk/articles ... hless-cycling-article.htm
http://petfishclub.com/fishless-cycle-with-fish-food/

This is also why it's important to have an ammonia tester, so that you know that the process has properly started.

I completely agree that it's difficult to know what one's life circ*mstances will be in 20 years' time. For that and other reasons, much as I adore them, I wouldn't take on the responsibility of a goldfish again given that their lifespan is several decades. I turned down various opportunities in life because of my beloved goldfish - I don't for one moment regret any of them, as I would never have wanted to put his life in jeopardy by subjecting him to a move or not keeping him as my own pet for life, but it does illustrate how you never know how life might unfold. At least with tropical fish, the much shorter lifespan is a bonus if unsure how life might unfold.

As for the language learning, even with fluency, it can be difficult in a foreign country to insist on keeping to the language you're trying to learn, if the responses come back in English. However, the language of fishkeeping is so specialist that even with fluency in a language, it's full of terms which are unlikely to have ever been learned.

I believe that, in Germany and Switzerland, it is actually illegal for shopkeepers to sell tanks under a certain size for fish and illegal for them to be marketed as such, in the way that it isn't illegal in the UK but the onus is on the fishkeeper to do the research under animal welfare legislation, etc. I'm also almost certain that it's illegal to buy under-sized tanks too. I suppose it's possible that people might lie about the size of their tank but I can't get my head around why anyone would do that ie deliberately risk the welfare of their pets.

As for your choice of fish - I'll post separately about that shortly.

Hope this is helpful so far, though.

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fcmf

• Coldwater Adviser
• 

• Posted on: 8/12/2016 20:09

Re: New Tank #10

Following on from my last post in which I promised to get back to you on the choice of fish...

The Seriously Fish profiles are set up, based on the scientific research of the international resource Fishbase. Everything they specify in terms of a species of fish's requirements are due to this science, so their advice should be taken seriously, particularly as they are not there to make a profit (eg from selling fish, medication, etc.)

When the website gives (minimum) tank size requirements for a particular species of fish, and mentions for a particular number of fish, that will be for the reasons that:
* the particular species needs to be in a group of a certain size eg tetras are shoaling fish and need to be in groups of 5+ but the more the better in order for them to display normal behaviour and become less stressed and therefore prone to illness.
* the tank size is what that species of fish require in order to have sufficient swimming room.

It took me a while to get my head around this once I moved into tropical fishkeeping although I followed the advice - but I understand the rationale behind it now that I've been keeping tropical fish for a couple of years and see what's happening and have read of others' experiences.

For that reason, 2 black skirted tetras would not be suitable for a smaller tank ie it doesn't equate like that. What would almost certainly happen is that the black skirted tetras would behave even more fin-nippy than normal due to being in an inadequately size group, and with insufficient swimming room, and the poor guppies would end up being a target with their "tempting" tails, which would be at big risk of developing finrot and bacterial infection.

The guppies on their own might be an option, though. They require hard water - and so were not an option for me with soft water and so I've never kept them - limescale in the kettle is usually a good indicator of whether the water is hard and therefore suitable for them in your case. Another suitable option for hard water is http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/poecilia-wingei/ Both guppies and endlers are livebearers, though - even ten minutes of a male and female in a tank together in the pet shop (for example) will result in the female producing offspring for the next 6 months or so as they store the sperm, so, unless you get a male-only group, you'll need to make plans for the offspring (ie find whether a pet shop would take them on, or whether you'd need a licence to be able to give/sell them on or have additional tanks for the additional fish).

If you weren't keen on the above for the obvious reasons, then some other options might be the following (subject to the hardness of your water being suitable), some of which are better suited to softer water:
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/hyphessobrycon-amandae/
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/boraras-maculatus/
http://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/celestichthys-margaritatus/

If mixing more than one type, it's important that the temperature is suitable for each.

Those are all the species that spring to mind as suitable for your size of tank but I or someone else will no doubt add if there are any more possibilities.

Hope this helps.

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